When my two boys were little, they’d get into fights in the back seat of the car over minor issues that seemed cataclysmic to them. So we’d play a game called, “Big Problem or Little Problem?” It would start with them describing the heinous act by Boy 1 that had caused Boy 2 to shriek.
“He ate more of the chocolate than I did!”“Ok, that’s a problem,” I’d say. “Now what about this: What if your eyeballs exploded and eyeball juice blinded mom as she was driving? Big problem or little problem?”
“Big problem!” I went through a few absurd examples and then asked, “Ok, him having some of your chocolate: big problem or little problem?” By then they were laughing hysterically and, while one of them would usually still answer ‘big problem’ to the final question, they had put the chocolate-crime in some perspective.
We have persistently faced a “big problem / little problem” issue in this election. Both sides have obvious reason to amplify the severity of the other person’s misdeeds. The media, always susceptible to the false equivalency trap, and just as important, always attracted to the latest shiny accusation, has great trouble putting things in perspective.
So I’ve taken a whack at a ranking. I tried to think of every bad thing that Trump and Hillary have done, and put them in order of awfulness. To me, what it shows is that Hillary has some real issues with slipperiness and judgment but that they are mostly minor league, or little league, compared to the often monstrous actions of Trump.
A few notes here about my “methodology.” I focused on questions of character, honesty or judgment. I stayed away from policy disputes or areas where the facts are murky. (More on the highly subjective criteria down below).
Trump actions are numbered in red. Clinton actions are numbered in blue.
1. Said “we’d better be careful because that election is going to be rigged”; said that “the only way we can lose…is if cheating goes on”; and his advisor Roger Stone has said that since polls currently show Trump winning Florida, if he loses “we will know that there’s voter fraud.…If there’s voter fraud, this election will be illegitimate….The government will be shut down if they attempt to steal this and swear Hillary in.”
2. Suggested that “second amendment people” could potentially stop Hillary from appointing judges if she’s elected President (presumably by assassinating her or the judges).
3. Implied that most Mexican immigrants are rapists and criminals, and then defended the comment by saying, “somebody’s doing the raping.”
4. Urged Russia to conduct espionage on Hillary Clinton.
5. Responded to criticism from the parents of a Muslim soldier killed in Iraq by suggesting that the father probably just didn’t like his plan to exclude “radical Islamic terrorists” and that the mother may have been forbidden from talking because she’s Muslim.
6. Proposed a religious test on immigration, banning all Muslims.
7. Claimed that Barack Obama’s birth certificate is a fraud; led effort to discredit his citizenship.
8. Hasn’t released his recent tax returns.
9. Trump’s former wife Ivana said in a deposition that he ripped out her hair in anger and raped her, later clarifying that although she felt “violated,” she didn’t intend for the word rape to be “interpreted in a literal or criminal sense.”
10. Last time he released his taxes publicly, in 1981, he paid nothing in federal income taxes.
11. Said the judge in the Trump University, Gonzalo Curiel, should be removed because he’s “Mexican.” Curiel was born in Indiana.
12. Shifted his personal debt on to his companies which then went bankrupt, short-changing workers and shareholders.
13. Paid himself $1 million while bankrupting his company.
14. Regularly retweets white supremacists.
15. Discussed his penis size in a national debate.
16. Claimed that there were thousands of Muslims cheering in New Jersey on 9/11 and continued to repeat claim despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary.
17. Suggested that since the Washington Post and New York Times are “dishonest” he will “open up” libel laws to make it easier for politicians to sue news organizations.
18. Trump Management Corporation was charged by the U.S. Justice Department in 1973 with refusing to rent to potential blacks and Hispanic tenants “because of race and color” and offering different terms to prospective renters based on race. Trump and the government settled.
19. Set up personal email server as Secretary of State; said she hadn’t sent classified information when she had sent some; was, according to the FBI director, “extremely careless” in her handling of classified information; and then mischaracterized what the FBI director had said.
20. Said John McCain wasn’t a hero because he was captured.
21. Retweeted that most homicides are black on white.
22. Trump Institute hired a shady business marketer who plagiarized lessons from other books.
23. Mocked a reporter with a disability.
24. Used mafia-run concrete companies for his construction projects.
25. Intimated that Obama is encouraging violence against police: “you just look at the body language, there’s something going on. Look, there’s something going on.”
26. Trump University used aggressive tactics to get students to spend as much money as possible, while giving them far less than advertised.
27. Says we’re allowing “thousands and thousands” of “radical Islamic terrorists” to come in to the country.
28. Made it a central theme of his primary bid that he was self-funding his campaign without mentioning that he would not be self-funding during the general election.
29. Strongly implied Ted Cruz’s father was involved with JFK’s assassination.
30. Wrote in support of cocaine dealer and embezzler Joseph Weichselbaum.
31. Dismissed questioning from Megyn Kelly by suggesting that she was having her period.
32. Told supporters at rallies that he’d defend them in court if they attack protesters.
33. Said in 2008 Obama was not a Muslim “as far as I know.”
34. Claims that the people of Crimea “would rather be with Russia.”
35. Used a graphic of Hillary featuring a Star of David and a pile of money and, after it was revealed that it originated on a white supremacist site, claimed that it was a sheriff’s star not a Jewish symbol.
36. Suggested he would date Ivanka if she weren’t his daughter.
37. Allowed foreign governments to give millions to the Clinton Foundation when she was secretary of state. And in at least one case, Clinton Foundation leaders sought favors from State Department officials for donors to the Foundation.
38. Claimed at least twice that “somebody” called for a moment of silence for the man who killed five Dallas police officers; that 11 cities were “potentially in a blow-up stage” and that there were angry rallies across the country “started by” the killer.
39. Boasted about his charitableness but gave little his own money to charity, instead counting free rounds of golfs and other services from his businesses. He also went seven years without contributing anything to his foundation.
40. After two supporters assaulted and urinated on a homeless Latino man in Boston, he said “people who are following me are very passionate.”
41. Implied that President Obama could intentionally be supporting Islamic terrorism.
42. Has refused to answer questions about evidence that Melania Trump may have come to the country illegally.
43. Gave speeches to Goldman Sachs for $675,000 and wont disclose what she said.
44. Boasted that his IQ is “one of the highest.”
45. Said American Muslims are not reporting terrorism. “When they see trouble they have to report it. They are not reporting it. They are absolutely not reporting it and that is a big problem.”
46. Trump Plaza Hotel and Casino was fined for removing black and women dealers at the request of high roller Robert Libutti (a man who had boasted of ties to mobster John Gotti).
47. Campaigned against American companies manufacturing in other countries even though most of his Trump clothing is made in overseas factories.
48. Tried to push classmate out of a window in high school.
49. Worked with Felix Sater, “who had already done a stint in prison for stabbing a man in the face with the stem of a margarita glass, and he was now awaiting sentencing for his role in a Mafia-orchestrated stock fraud scheme.”
50. Tweeted that Jeb Bush “has to like the Mexican illegals because of his wife.”
51. Claimed at least twice that “somebody” called for a moment of silence for the man who killed the Dallas policemen; that 11 cities were “potentially in a blow-up stage” and that there were angry rallies across the country “started by” the killer.
52. Responded to questions about Vladimer Putin killing journalists by saying “At least he’s a leader” and that “our country does plenty of killing also.”
53. Made nearly $100,000 on $1000 investment in commodities futures in Arkansas in the 1970s at the same time the Clintons were being supported by leading business people in the poultry industry.
54. Got four academic deferments to avoid serving in Vietnam, and then got a medical disqualification (for bone spurs in his feet) even though he had gotten a clean bill of health a few years earlier from the draft board and had played football in high school.
55. Speculated about whether his baby daughter would end up with large breasts.
57. A few years before Jeff Epstein was convicted of solicitation and procurement of minors for prostitution, Trump said of him, “I’ve known Jeff for fifteen years. Terrific guy…It is even said that he likes beautiful women as much as I do, and many of them are on the younger side. No doubt about it — Jeffrey enjoys his social life.” Epstein served 13 months in prison for recruiting girls as young as 12 to service his friends. (He also gave numerous plane rides to Bill Clinton.)
58. Refused to condemn anti-Semitic attacks on reporter who wrote article about his wife Melania. The attacks include pictures of the writer as a prisoner in a Nazi concentration camp, a photo of a Jewish man being shot in the head, and an article titled, “Empress Melania Attacked by Filthy Russian Kike Julia Ioffe in GQ!”
59. Said, “The concept of global warming was created by and for the Chinese in order to make U.S. manufacturing non-competitive.”
60. Said it’s “Hillary Clinton’s agenda” to “release the violent criminals from jail. She wants them all released.” Politifact labeled it Pants on Fire.
62. Praised the Chinese government’s strength in squashing the Tiananman Square uprising while criticizing Mikhail Gorbachev for his “extraordinary weakness.”
63. Claimed that Hillary “wants to abolish the Second Amendment,” which Politifact labeled false.
64. Trump businesses have received millions in Russian investment; “we see a lot of money pouring in from Russia,” his son said. Meanwhile during the campaign, Trump took the pro-Russia position of saying the US should not automatically defend Baltic states in NATO from Russian aggression, and altered GOP platform to soften the pledge to defend Ukraine against Russian aggression. Also, Russian hackers stole emails from the DNC some of which may have been leaked on the eve of the Democratic Convention.
65. Held a rally to benefit veterans and then didn’t give the money to veterans until the Washington Post wrote about it.
66. Led an “aggressive, explicit direction of the campaign to discredit” Gennifer Flowers, with whom Bill Clinton had an affair, according to biographer Carl Bernstein.
67. Said that being promiscuous when there were so many sexually transmitted diseases, was “my personal Vietnam.”
68. Claimed that the NFL had sent him a letter complaining about the debate schedule when it had not.
69. Supported Roy Cohn after he was disbarred for “attempting to steal from a client, lying and other conduct.”
70. Said in his convention speech that crime is skyrocketing and that “the terrorism in our cities, threaten our very way of life.”; despite a recent uptick, crime is lower than its been in 10 years.
71. Said he “heard” Obama “is thinking about signing an executive order where he wants to take your guns away,”
73. Kissed a Miss Universe contestant on the lips multiple times.
74. Said “virtually 100%” of mosques are radical.
75. Claims he never settles lawsuits, but has actually settled at least 100, mostly involving people physically injured at Trump properties.
76. Said we should consider having a national government database of American Muslims.
77. Said little is known about Hillary Clinton’s faith because there’s “nothing out there” about it.
78. Claimed he was one of the earliest to oppose the Iraq war, which Politifcat labeled false.
79. During a live interview,told Larry King that he has bad breath.
80. Claimed he could eliminate the national debt in eight years.
81. Said the Obama administration was actively supporting Al Qaeda in Iraq, which Politifact labeled Pants on Fire.
82. Bragged about his “real experiences” with married women.
83. Said he would defend Article 12 of the Constitution (which has only 7 articles).
84. Retweeted (then deleted): “If Hillary Clinton can’t satisfy her husband what makes her think she can satisfy America?”
85. Ran TV ads ostensibly showing swarms of people flooding over the Mexican border. The video was actually from Morocco.
86. Cheated on his first wife.
87. At Trump’s Taj Mahal casino, at least 253 subcontractors weren’t paid in full or on time, according to USA Today.
88. Responded tothe Orlando nightclub shooting by tweeting, “Appreciate the congrats for being right on radical Islamic terrorism.”
89. Claimed she landed in Bosnia under sniper fire (later calling it a “misstatement”).
90. Failed to disclose to New Jersey gaming regulators that he was under federal grand jury inquiry.
91. Took out a full page ad calling for the death penalty for five men accused of raping a woman in Central Park – and then, after someone else confessed to the crime and the city settled with the falsely accused, said the settlement was a “disgrace.”
92. Said our immigration system “does not permit us to know who we let into our country.”
93. Supported a plan in which campaign donors could in effect buy seats on US trade missions to China, according to a former associate of Commerce Secretary Ron Brown.
94. Tweeted a photo of his wife next to unflattering picture of Ted Cruz’s wife.
95. Made deporting 11 million undocumented immigrants a centerpiece of his primary campaign but then after he secured the nomination said he was actually going to narrow the focus to “bad dudes…I would not call it mass deportations.”
96. Ran a mortgage brokerage that failed and stiffed some employees.
97. During the 2008 campaign, said she was preferable because Barack Obama was losing support among “working, hard-working Americans, white Americans”
98. While pitching himself as a friend of the working man, he spent $500,000 to defeat a union organizing effort at one of his hotels.
99. Claimed that under the Iran deal, if Iran attacks Israel we have to defend Iran.
100. Said Bernie Sanders “has been largely a very reliable supporter of the NRA,” which Politifact said was mostly false.
101. Repeatedly exaggerates his own wealth.
102. The wife of a business partner said in a 1997 lawsuit that he “forcibly kissed, fondled and restrained (her) from leaving, against (her) will and despite her protests. (Trump denies this)
103. HelpedHelped get the children of his late brother cut out of their father’s will. After the children sued, he cut off medical aid to their child who had cerebral palsy. his own wealth.
104. As a young defense attorney, aggressively attempted to discredit at 12-year-old rape victim while defending the accused rapist.
105. Responded to a reporter’s criticism by saying “I get more pussy than you do.”
106. Significant but informal Trump advisor Roger Stone (who runs the pro-Trump super-PAC) said Hillary should be “executed for murder”; referred to commentator Roland Martin as a “stupid negro”; tweeted DIE BITCH at former New York Times editor Jill Abramson; established an anti-Hillary group called “C.U.N.T”; claimed that the Bush family tried to kill Ronald Reagan; dedicated his book to a Holocaust denier; and praised a conspiracy theorist who says the Sandy Hook shooting was a hoax.to a reporter’s criticism by saying “I get more pussy than you do.”
107. Claimed that Hillary’s immigration plan would create “totally open borders” which Politifact labeled false.
108. Impersonated his own PR person to tell people Madonna and others wanted to date him, then lied about it.
109. Claimed Hillary laundered money through the state department, which Politifact categorized as false.
110. Said “I am the only candidate who ran in either primary who said, ‘I will not raise taxes on the middle class.”
111. After making the banning of Muslim immigrants a central campaign promise, Tried to seduce the daughter of a mobster.
112. Claims “Hillary Clinton says she wants to ‘raise taxes on the middle class.’” Politfact labeled that a Pants on Fire lie.
113. After making the banning of Muslim immigrants a central campaign promise, Said the death of Vince Foster is “very fishy.
114. After making the banning of Muslim immigrants a central campaign promise, said after the primaries it was just a suggestion.
115. Claimed that Benghazi victims were “left helpless to die as Hillary Clinton soundly slept in her bed,” which Politifact labeled as false.
116. Said Carly Fiorina shouldn’t be president because she’s too ugly.
117. Said Ben Carson’s “pathological temper” was incurable, just like being a child molester.
118. Created a gift registry for various household items and gifts that were donated to her before she became senator.
119. Said, “For the amount of money Hillary Clinton would like to spend on refugees, we could rebuild every inner city in America.” Politifact labeled it Pants on Fire.
120. Claimed crime is rising. Politifact rated this as Pants on Fire.
121. Said we’re the “highest taxed nation in the world,” which Politifact labeled false.
122. Said “I’m the most successful person ever to run for the presidency, by far.”
123. Claimed that ISIS was using video of Trump to recruit new terrorists, which Politifact said was false.
124. Claimed that “undocumented workers in New York pay more in taxes than some of the biggest corporations,” which The Washington Post gave four pinocchios.
125. Said Hillary Clinton “has even deleted this record of total support (for the Trans-Pacific Partnership trade agreement) from her book.” Politifact labeled it Pants on Fire.
126. Mocked Marco Rubio for sweating too much.
127. Claimed that Syrian Christians weren’t allowed to immigrate.
128. Claimed that the federal government is sending refugees to states with Republicans not Democrats, which Politifact labeled Pants on Fire.
129. Said ISIS “is making millions of dollars a week selling Libyan oil.” Politifact labeled this false.
130. Sometimes refers to the President as “Barry Soetoro.”
131. Claimed falsely that Barack Obama’s wedding ring has an Arabic inscription.
132. Said “something has got to be coming down from the top…Muslims can come in but Christians can’t, and the Muslims aren’t in danger but the Christians are.”
133. Claimed that the 2016 federal spending bill “funds illegal immigrants coming in and through your border, right through Phoenix,” which Politifact labeled Pants on Fire.
134. Claimed that Donald Trump “wants us to pull out of NATO,” which Politifact labeled “mostly false” because he actually just said NATO was obsolete.
135. Claimed that Donald Trump “doesn’t make a thing in America.” There are a few.
136. Applied for foreign work visas to hire immigrants instead of Americans for Mar-a-Lago.
137. Said that under the Iran nuclear deal, “we give them $150 billion, we get nothing.” Politifact labeled this false.
138. Left two wives for younger women.
139. Claims that the Trump winery is the biggest on the East Coast. It isn’t.
140. Said Common Core is “education through Washington DC,” which Politifact labeled false.
141. Claimed that unemployment is 35 percent or even 42% rather than 4.9 percent, which Politifact labeled Pants on Fire.
142. For Cinco de Mayo, he tweeted a picture of himself eating a Taco bowl and declaring, “I love Hispanics!”
143. Said Saddam Hussein was “so good” at killing terrorists.
144. Claimed most Syrian migrants are “strong, powerful men,” which Politifact labeled false.
145. Claimed he had never asked that Megyn Kelly be removed as debate moderator even though he had.
146. Claimed that Obama wants to take 250,000 refugees from Syria, which Politifact labeled as Pants on Fire.
147. Claimed in the 2008 race that NIH funding declined under Bush.
148. Claimed TPP would be a boon for China, which Politifact labeled Pants on Fire.
149. Claimed his budget plan would cut taxes without increasing the deficit, which Politifact labeled false.
150. Said Bernie Sanders would raise the tax rate to 90% which Politifact labeled Pants on Fire.
151. Said Hillary filibustered legislation to reform Fannie Mae, which Politifact said was false.
152. Said there are at least 30 million illegal immigrants, which Politfact labeled Pants on Fire.
153. Said Florida had five “sanctuary cities” when Jeb Bush was governor.
154. Said his book “The Art of the Deal” is the “no. 1 selling business book of all time,” which Politifact called false.
155. Claimed that the President’s grandmother said Obama was born in Kenya.
156. Claimed that the House Benghazi investigation was the longest running Congressional investigation in history, which Politifact labeled false.
157. Claimed she was named after explorer Sir Edmund Hillary.
158. Said even among “second and third generation” Muslims in the United States, “there’s no real assimilation.”
159. Said the death of Clinton friend Vince Foster is “very fishy.”
160.Trump Towers hired 200 undocumented Polish workers who put in 12 hour shifts, seven days a week for $4 to $5 a hour in 1990.
161. Tried to use eminent domain to kick an elderly woman out of her apartment.
162. Top aide Huma Abedin was allowed to work both at the state department and as a consultant for a private firm.
163. Picked a running mate who said “smoking doesn’t kill.”
164. Said you’re three times more likely to get a mortgage if you’re white than if you’re black, which Politifact labeled false.
165. Said “I know words, I have the best words.”
166. Claimed we have more jobs in solar than in oil, which Politifact says is false.
167. Claimed we’ve driven health care costs down to “the lowest point in 50 years,” while its actually the health care inflation rate that has been constrained.
168. Claimed that his tax plan would “cost me a fortune,” when it would likely reduce his taxes.
169. Said Said “You know, it doesn’t really matter what [the media] write as long as you’ve got a young and beautiful piece of ass.”
170. Said George W. Bush lied about Iraq and later claimed he didn’t say that.
171. Clinton Global Initiative “set up a financial commitment that benefited a for-profit company part-owned by people with ties to the Clintons,” according to the Wall Street Journal.
172. Said “it’s certainly not groundbreaking news that the early victories by the women on ‘The Apprentice’ were, to a very large extent, dependent on their sex appeal.”
173. Denied that FBI Director had said her approach to emails was “sloppy” when he had.
174. Claimed all of her grandparents immigrated to the U.S., although it was mostly her great grandparents who immigrated.
175. Claimed the stats on poverty improvement were 100 times better under Bill Clinton than Ronald Reagan. They were better but not by that much.
176. Solicited campaign contributions from foreigners.
177. Had his physician issue the statement, “If elected, Mr. Trump, I can state unequivocally, will be the healthiest individual ever elected to the presidency.”
Methodology: This is not attempting to be a comprehensive list of reasons to vote against either of them. It is limited mostly to measures of human awfulness – venality, corruption, dishonesty, malice, or desire to foment hatred and stir the worst in other people. It also includes items labeled “false” or “Pants on Fire” by Politifact. It stays away from policy positions. So for instance, I left out Trump’s promise to build a wall on the Mexican border, which may be atrocious but isn’t itself isn’t a sign of perfidy. I also left out possibly Hillary Clinton’s biggest negative, her vote in favor of the Iraq war.
I excluded or minimized instances when bad things happened for reasons of incompetence rather than nefariousness. I didn’t include various instances of Trump being an incompetent businessman but did include instance of him being a corrupt or malicious businessman. This is also the reason I mostly left out Benghazi. The main thing she appears to be guilty of is not rationalizing the State Department bureaucracy with sufficient speed that would have left the consulate better protected. A definite failure in management but not nefarious or dishonest.
7/19 revisions: I added the fresh comment from Trump insinuating that Obama is siding with cop killers and his suggestion that people were calling for moments of silence for the killer of Dallas police officers. After getting some feedback, I moved the anti-McCain comment down on the grounds that Trump did eventually sort of retract it, and deleted the Sarah Palin item. I also added in the Polish workers lawsuit; and Hillary’s claim that undocumented works pay more than corporations in taxes.
7/24 revisions: I was a bit puzzled what to do with rising issue of Trump’s ties to Putin. At first it just seemed odd that he made such nice comments about Putin, a sign of how Trump would be warm to anyone who complimented him. Then it seemed odd that he was taking such pro-Russia stands on NATO and foreign policy but we figured that was some combination of ignorance and isolationist tendencies.. Then it seemed interesting that Trump companies get so much investment from Russians, but so do a lot of American business. And Trump’s foreign policy advisors have worked for Russia or pro-Russia aliles, but guns-for-hire political consultants often work for dubious characters. So I hadnt included it in the original list because there was not evidence that these things were linked. I decided to put it on the list now because of the suspicious timing of the leaks of embarrassing emails in which DNC officials plot against Bernie Sanders. Were these the same emails that were hacked by Russians a few months ago? If so (and it seems likely), you’re starting to get into territory of a foreign adversary trying to influence an election. Frankly, if all the implications of this Josh Marshall post turn out to be true, then this item goes to #1, right? I put it lower down for now because right now it’s several suspicious coincidences, which is worse than some other things lower down on the list but doesnt quite get it past the absolutely 100% provably true abominations that make up the top 10.
Other changes: In light of his convention praise of veterans — and his biography’s failure to mention the Vietnam years — I moved his four Vietnam deferments up a bit. Somehow I’d managed to miss Trump telling Larry King, on air, that he had bad breath, which is not an important global issue but nicely illustrates his schoolyard cruelty. I also stuck in his repeated references to the President of the United States as “Barry Soetoro” and reference to a rather astonishing charge that he cut out the children of his late brother from his father’s will. The only reason that didn’t make the top 20 is some of the facts are murky. I added Trump’s convention deception about crime but not in the top 20 because he had least had the slightly true fact that crime is up in the last six months in a bunch of places. To me that put it more in the realm of run-of-the-mill horrible demagoguery rather than pathbreaking awfulness. I added another instance of him trying to that there’s a war against Christians and Obama is leading it. In the category of statements that in normal years would have been a big deal, I put in his quote that winners in the Apprentice in the early years were chosen in large part on “sex appeal.” I added at the end an episode that is a bit more harmless but still is one of my favorites: when he got his doctor to say “I can state unequivocally, will be the healthiest individual ever elected to the presidency.” I also added Hillary’s incorrect characterization of what the FBI director had said about her email server.
Revisions 8/10/2016: The top ten of this article when it originally ran was astronishing. Then again, it involved statements or actions over the course of Donald Trump’s entire life. Amazingly, of the new top five, four of them happened in just the last month! His awfulness appears to be growing geometrically rather than arithmetically.
His warning that the election would be stolen and his suggested that “Second Amendment people” could assassinate Hillary Clinton or her judicial nominees bumped from the top slot Trump’s original comment about Mexican immigrants being rapists. I struggled with which one should go first. On the hand, encouraging the assassination of your political opponent is pretty hard to beat. On the other hand, his comments about the election seemed to be more part of a deliberate, coordinated effort to lay the ground work for de-legitimitizing the election, the winner and democracy. That’s bad too.
His recent comments are so astonishing that they actually bumped Trump having reportedly raped his wife down from #5 to #9. Another indication of just how much Trump’s awfulness has accelerated: I had planned to move Hillary Clinton’s email problems up higher given her mis-statements about the email server. Instead, it actually dropped from #15 to #19.