There’s plenty that ordinary citizens can do to push back on the Trump regime. They can protest, they can support legal action, they can lobby elected officials, and, above all, they can stay informed. Co-hosts Anne Kim and Garrett Epps speak with journalist Timothy Noah about his recent piece for TNR on the tactics of successful resistance.
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Below is a transcript of the conversation, lightly edited for clarity:
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Anne Kim: This conversation is taking place shortly after a nationwide wave of protests against Donald Trump’s policies. The organizers of the so-called Hands Off protests claimed millions of participants, including from around the world. And if you saw the photos online, there were pretty big crowds—even in red states like Idaho and Missouri.
Your piece, Tim, is titled A Citizen’s Guide to Resistance, and one of your exhortations is to march. So let’s start there. Why is it so important to march? What did you find from history about the effectiveness of protests like these? Are the protests we saw last weekend a moment—or a movement?
Tim Noah: I think they’re a movement. We’ve seen a lot of mobilization since Trump entered the White House for a second time. A recent study showed more than twice as many protests in February this year compared to February 2017. People are responding.
That sends a message—not so much to Trump, since I don’t think he’s reachable—but to others in power, particularly Republicans. And that matters. Republicans need to understand they have something to lose in their blind support of Trump.
Anne Kim: You also looked at how protests have been effective over time. What did your reporting uncover about the role that marching has historically played?
Tim Noah: The classic example is the Civil Rights March, which came after years of litigation leading up to the Brown v. Board of Education decision. What’s different now is that litigation and protesting are happening simultaneously—and I think they’re reinforcing each other in a good way.
We haven’t seen many results yet, since court decisions move slowly—and Garrett can speak to that better than I can—but we are making progress. Trump is losing most of these cases, even with judges appointed by Republicans and by Trump himself. That’s real progress.
Garrett Epps: One big difference this time is that instead of just one huge march in Washington, we’ve seen over 1,200 different protests, including in red states. But a troubling trend is that red state legislatures are cracking down on the right to protest.
What do we do about that?
Tim Noah: This is hard to say, but I think we’re going to have to see people go to jail—protesters, and especially government officials. We’ve come close already, with U.S. Marshals escorting fired officials out of offices.
If one of them refuses to leave and ends up in jail, it’ll become a huge story—especially if the firing was illegal. If someone has a strong legal case that they can’t be fired the way Trump is doing it, the courts will rush to catch up with justice. That’s very much in the tradition of civil rights protests.
Anne Kim: And you mention the U.S. Institute of Peace?
Tim Noah: Right. They study protest movements, and even though they’re not a government agency—just a nonprofit funded by the government—they resisted efforts to shut them down. They engaged in tactical maneuvers to stay open.
Someone will eventually decide, “I’m going to be Martin Luther King. I’m going to jail.” And it won’t just be one person—it’ll take many, as it did during the civil rights movement. I think that’s where we’re headed, especially if the Trump administration continues to defy court orders.
Anne Kim: I had a follow-up question on tactics. It was interesting that Indivisible and other organizations decided to go with 1,200 or 1,300 local protests instead of one massive march in Washington. As a practical matter, what do you recommend? If you’re a citizen who wants to get out there and march, what’s most effective in terms of optics and impact? Are these smaller local marches more effective than a big one in D.C.?
Tim Noah: I think we should be doing both, and it’s fairly easy to do both. But the local protests might be more important, because that’s how pressure works in a democracy. You start with local officials who are closer to the ground. They feel the pressure, and then pass it upward. Eventually, it reaches members of Congress, who may finally become more afraid of losing an election than of angering Donald Trump.
Right now, we’re seeing rapid mobilization on Wall Street because Trump is wrecking the economy. But over the long term, Wall Street won’t save us. They might save the stock market, but they’re not going to save the country.
Anne Kim Your piece lists three other strategies for citizen resistance. Let’s take those one at a time. One of them is, quote, “Sue the bastard.”
Tim Noah: That’s the first line of defense, and it’s the most effective. But it takes time. We’ve seen a lot of successful lawsuits, but they move slowly. The Trump administration plays games with injunctions—misinterprets them, delays action—and that leads to more hearings.
We’re reaching a point—maybe we’ve already passed it—where the Trump administration isn’t just defying the courts but openly admitting it. That’s when we’ll see how far the courts are willing to go. I think judges will be willing to impose fines or even jail time on government officials who ignore court orders.
At that point, Trump might pardon those officials, or order the U.S. Marshals not to enforce a judge’s ruling. But each of those moves escalates things, and creates more instability. That, in turn, could cause financial markets to panic. The U.S. economy relies on projecting stability. If the government can’t do that, it creates real economic problems.
Garrett Epps: It’s worth remembering that the first pardon Trump issued in his first term was for Sheriff Arpaio, who had been convicted of criminal contempt. That sent a message to people working for Trump—they remember that.
Another strategy you suggest is pestering local elected officials. What does that look like? Which officials should people focus on? And is this something for red states only, or everywhere?
Tim Noah: I think the need is more urgent in red states, because blue states are mostly already on board. So yes—pester your city councilmember, pester your state legislator. And it won’t be about abstract issues like the separation of powers. It’ll be things like: Where’s my Social Security check? Where’s my research grant? Where’s my highway funding?
Anne Kim: We all get those emails—“Click here to send a letter to your congressman.” It’s a form letter, and you probably get a form letter in return. Does that actually make a difference?
Tim Noah: It’s not enough, but yes—it has some effect. Volume matters. We’ve already seen members of Congress get nervous about grant funding under the Inflation Reduction Act being cut off—those grants were mostly going to red states. It’s not a great look for a Republican to publicly oppose sending money to their own state, especially when the funds have already been appropriated by Congress.
Anne Kim: The fourth and final suggestion in your piece is to keep up—to stay engaged. That’s hard for a lot of people right now, partly because of the constant flood of news, but also because it’s demoralizing. What do you recommend?
Tim Noah: First of all, don’t cancel your newspaper subscriptions. I know they’re imperfect—some are getting worse—but they’re still the best we’ve got. Don’t cancel The New York Times because it’s not left-wing enough. Don’t cancel The Washington Post because the owner made some bad decisions, like refusing to endorse Kamala Harris or pushing some bizarre pro-market strategy.
Just as a personal example—I used to be a reporter in the Wall Street Journal’s Washington bureau. The editorial page was awful. So I stopped reading it. That way, when a source asked, “Did you see that editorial?” I could honestly say, “No idea what it said.” Reporters coped with it.
However compromised these institutions may be, they still follow the basic rules of journalism and send reporters out to gather real information. That matters.
The other thing that surprised me during reporting: several people said, “You have to be on TikTok.” I started a TikTok account, and I didn’t have great success with it—I have no patience for it—but there are reliable sources on there.
Aaron Parnas, the son of Lev Parnas, turns out to be a pretty good source for what’s happening legally. His dad was one of Trump’s associates who went to jail. Aaron isn’t even really part of the “resistance.” When I talked to him, he sounded more like Edward R. Murrow. He said, “I don’t do commentary. I just report what’s happening.”
And one lawyer told me TikTok is how they stay up to date on the legal cases involving Trump—through Aaron’s videos and his Substack.
Garrett Epps: Well, I took your advice and joined TikTok. I’ve learned some killer dance moves. We’ll do them next time we meet.
But seriously—there’s something else hanging over all of this. The evolving role of ICE—as a kind of secret police. They’re grabbing people off the street, holding them incommunicado, sometimes even deporting U.S. citizens. How do we deal with that? What role should the resistance play in confronting that fear and protecting immigrant communities?
Tim Noah: I’m embarrassed to say that after I wrote and published the piece, I realized I hadn’t talked much about immigration—and neither had most of the activists, scholars, or politicians I interviewed. I think that’s because it’s the hardest area.
Trump has a lot of latitude there. There are some legal challenges, particularly First Amendment ones—especially when it comes to actions against universities—but it’s difficult. I should probably do a whole separate piece on immigration, because the legal avenues are limited.
In this case, I think protest will be especially important. There’s likely a role for civil disobedience in protecting immigrants. I’m not experienced in that area, but when your government is doing something that is morally wrong, it’s time to break the law.
Garrett Epps: I think you’re absolutely right. From my work on the Civil War era, it’s amazing how galvanizing the Fugitive Slave Act of 1850 was for Northern public opinion. Suddenly, slave catchers were coming into cities like New York and Milwaukee, grabbing people who were free Black citizens and trying to drag them back into slavery.
There were some remarkable acts of civil disobedience. In Boston, people surrounded City Hall to stop them from removing a fugitive slave. Once you make the case that these are people in our community, it changes everything. That kind of protest doesn’t just express dissent—it mobilizes people who hadn’t thought much about the issue before.
Tim Noah: That’s a great point. One group I didn’t talk to, but should have, is religious leaders. I imagine they played a big role in the kind of civil disobedience you’re describing. There’s a tradition of sanctuary in religious communities. But again—it’s hard. It’s the most frightening part of what Trump is doing, because it’s where people have the least recourse.
Anne Kim: One of the things I really appreciated in your piece was the historical context. You tell the story of some successful citizen activists—one of them was Lotte Scharfman, whom I hadn’t heard of before. Could you talk about her story and why it felt relevant to you?
Garrett Epps: I hadn’t heard of her either, honestly.
Tim Noah: I hadn’t either. I came across her while trying to figure out who first said, “Democracy is not a spectator sport.” It’s a cliché, but it’s also a truth—and I wanted to lead the piece with that sentiment. A lot of people I know treat politics passively. They express dismay or hopelessness, and that’s not appropriate in a democracy.
So I dug around and found that the quote came from Lotte Scharfman. She was a refugee from Nazi-occupied Austria. She came to the U.S. and became head of the League of Women Voters in Massachusetts. At the time, the Massachusetts state legislature had a problem: the House of Representatives was bloated—larger than California’s, even though Massachusetts had a much smaller population—and riddled with corruption.
Political scientists said the legislature couldn’t be reformed because the House would have to vote to shrink itself. And it didn’t want to give up its own power or jobs. That seemed like an unsolvable problem. But Scharfman took it on. She made reducing the size of the House her cause.
She died young, before the fight was won. But in the first vote after her campaign, the reform failed—and then, in the next election, many of the lawmakers who opposed it lost their seats. Within a few years, the legislature voted for reform, and voters approved it in a statewide referendum. Today, the Massachusetts House is significantly smaller, thanks in large part to her efforts.
Anne Kim: Wow.
Garrett Epps: You know, Tim, a lot of people are talking about your piece—and I think it’s because you did what journalists are supposed to do. You went out, talked to people, asked them what they knew and what they thought.
Tim Noah: It’s a remarkable technique, right?
You’re absolutely right—it reads more like a newspaper piece than a magazine piece, and I did that on purpose.
Garrett Epps: So, if someone put you on the spot and asked: What’s the one thing you learned from this reporting that people need to know—what would you say?
Tim Noah: It’s hard to narrow it down, but one thing several people told me was: Nobody is coming to rescue you. And that really stuck with me.
I think Democrats, in particular, need to stop doing their favorite thing—which is beating up on other Democrats for not doing things right. Rather than express frustration with existing leaders, the resistance should be out there finding new ones.
Some of those leaders will be in Congress—Jamie Raskin is a good example—but many will be outside of Washington, and some outside of politics altogether. These moments create new leaders organically.
So we need to move away from the theater-critic approach to politics, which our mentor Charlie Peters was always exasperated by. If you think people in power are getting it wrong, complaining won’t fix it. You have to get out there and help make them do it right.
Anne Kim: Well, Tim, we’ll see you at the next protest. Thanks so much for joining us.
Garrett Epps: Fantastic. Thanks, Tim.
Tim Noah: Thanks. Bye Bye.
